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Do I need to pay for bugs corrections ??????

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  • #16
    Originally posted by daveprue View Post
    I gave my opinion on the topic before and that thread was deleted, so I will not give it again.

    Dave
    there aren't any kind of censorship. did you know who delete it?
    /Giuseppe

    Professional Scriptcase Services
    Some Customers opinions

    Comment


    • #17
      The policy of not upgrading expired subscriptions is normal, and no one has questioned that in this discussion.

      New functionality/features should be paid for. Old functionality/features were already paid for. Bugs are just the features/functions that haven't been delivered yet.

      The policy of not addressing bugs in older products is not normal. It's theft.

      Microsoft, as wretched, evil, and feebtard as they are, doesn't abandon older products as soon as a new version is released. Many of the folks here would be totally screwed if Microsoft adopted NetMake's product support policy.

      Windows, Office, SQL Server... Those all get support for a reasonable span of years. The bugs get fixed.

      I sell software, produce OpenSource software, and collaborate on lots of projects. I assume I'll be supporting anything I provide until the copyright notice is outside the statute of limitations, whether it was sold or freeware.

      Many of us, with never a thought, depend on our vendors not abandoning the products we've purchased.

      Normal, my ass.

      Comment


      • #18
        The policy of not addressing bugs in older products is not normal. It's theft.
        perhaps m$ is doing that, but I have loads of products who don't. How long do you have to support old versions?
        Albert Drent
        aducom software netherlands
        scriptcase partner, reseller, support and (turn-key) development
        www.scriptcase.eu / www.scriptcase.nl

        Comment


        • #19
          @daveprue, I'm curious too. I'm one of the moderators and for sure didn't remove it.
          Albert Drent
          aducom software netherlands
          scriptcase partner, reseller, support and (turn-key) development
          www.scriptcase.eu / www.scriptcase.nl

          Comment


          • #20
            I support it until it works or no one is reporting bugs. Then I get useful enhancement feedback.

            Lots of companies have learned that mediocrity isn't a 4-letter word, and that selling buys a yacht faster than delivering. Widespread dishonesty is not de facto honesty.

            All of my stuff works though. First time. Yep, my "Save All" button posts straight to the shipping department.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Giblet535 View Post
              That is dishonest.
              Consider yourself lucky not to be an Embarcadero customer. Only their next version gets bugfixes, plus a bunch of new bugs. That means a new version of their RAD IDEs every six months or so.
              In comparison SC licensing and updates are positively generous.
              The GuiGuy
              ... from Down Under

              Comment


              • #22
                hi guys, i want to jump again please

                ask yourself this question:

                - do SC do this in purpose? for sure no
                - do they do everything they can to fix and make things right? well, that vary, because we all know it is not a US-based company to follow standards and certain quality, we know that their management does't believe in being stable and bugs free means focus on marketing and more $$$

                it is a real business to them, i don't know how they keep value their company, perhaps there they are is not a company with high income, but i guess it is in their culture, and i guess such business is more profitable than any other business now adays, clean, powerful, joy, easy and you are selling licensing God dam it! not something you need to work hard to do it, your real product is what all these guys are saying about bugs, a roadmap should be there, bug tracker (I know Albert made one available, myself couldn't manage its difficulty - sorry) and more staff to handle the follow up + make bartho head of security guys outside of the building, don't give him any username or password for anything

                okay guys, what i wanna say is do you have a name of any other software can do what SC does? any other platform that do things in the same way SC does? then if you know, please share with us, it will motivate those guys to work harder and make bugs less in shorter time... by the way, even if they do work all hard (I doubt it) not sharing this stuff step by step with us as community,let us feel that they do nothing... moreover, look at when you send an email to somebody from SC, see how long it takes to reach and get back to you.. so, it is not that working hard, it is they may not be in the office all the time then

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                • #23
                  I dropped my licences for the Embarcadero producst, but they are not the only one with that policy. Mike, I think that SC is working hard to improve their quality, but there is a cultural difference for sure. The main issue is that they need to test before deploy, but I know that 8.1 is on it's way and they are taking their time because they are still working on the bugs of 8. They will not go for version 9 so there's definitively improvement in their policy. But I'm a realistic guy too, they have a long way to go. But you have to start from somewhere.
                  Second, SC is not a huge company with loads of employees and programmers. Perhaps around 7 devs and they can't do all. The time they use to respond to you will not be used for development. I think you re not the only one 'bugging' them ;-)
                  I'm a developer and sometimes I need a lot of time to find some minor issue. Why? No idea, sometimes it simply is so. That doesn't mean that I dont work hard... Don't expect that those devs will solve all the issues (and there where/are many) in a few weeks. But they are currently working hard on them, proven by the recente updates. But it's a long list because they where more focussed on new features and new version.It appears that that has changed.
                  There are competative products. If you read their forums you will not find much critisism. That has a reason, lack of bugs is not one of them. Before choosing SC we have done our homework. At the end no product is perfect, but at least SC is an open company although I'm curious to dave's loss of items...
                  Albert Drent
                  aducom software netherlands
                  scriptcase partner, reseller, support and (turn-key) development
                  www.scriptcase.eu / www.scriptcase.nl

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    thanks albert, don't know why you felt I'm fighting here, i was trying to discuss, I'm with you with every word, don't be mad please

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by aducom View Post
                      @daveprue, I'm curious too. I'm one of the moderators and for sure didn't remove it.
                      Albert,

                      Do you not remember the conversation? You posted several times in that thread, as did Giu. The last post that I saw was Marcia's response, I remember being amazed since I had never seen her respond in this forum. A few minutes later the thread no longer existed.

                      Dave
                      Dave Prue
                      Code Whisperer
                      Lahar International Corp
                      www.lahar.net

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Giu View Post
                        What I said don't means bugs could'nt be solved in previous branch

                        Just you can't upgrade to 8.1 thath includes new functionality
                        So, lets be perfectly clear on this. This is a simple example of what I understand to be true:

                        I report bugs to NetMake, in 8.0.012, 8.0.013 ... 8.0.030 and patiently wait for them to do a fix.
                        I use my own time to diagnose, test, isolate, and report - thereby saving NetMake developers time.
                        NetMake finally gets around to fixing the problem, say in 8.1.027.
                        Because my one year has expired, I cannot get the bugfix, unless I pay again.

                        I am NOT inviting comments about what other companies do, or whether this is a good or bad business model. I just want to make sure that we all understand the policy correctly.

                        Dave
                        Dave Prue
                        Code Whisperer
                        Lahar International Corp
                        www.lahar.net

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by daveprue View Post
                          So, lets be perfectly clear on this. This is a simple example of what I understand to be true:

                          I report bugs to NetMake, in 8.0.012, 8.0.013 ... 8.0.030 and patiently wait for them to do a fix.
                          I use my own time to diagnose, test, isolate, and report - thereby saving NetMake developers time.
                          NetMake finally gets around to fixing the problem, say in 8.1.027.
                          Because my one year has expired, I cannot get the bugfix, unless I pay again.

                          I am NOT inviting comments about what other companies do, or whether this is a good or bad business model. I just want to make sure that we all understand the policy correctly.

                          Dave
                          okay i'm not trying to defend them Dave, but they clearly said that bug fixes will be free of charge, just update your version manual even if the upgrade period is expired, they have mechanism to distinguish the new features in your version and prevent them from being updated or something but definitely the bug fixes can be updated without forcing you to purchase the upgrade, I double checked and confirmed this with Marcia

                          that's why i was saying earlier they keep themselves busy to add mechanism to distinguish the new features and the bug fixes while they allow to upgrade it manually even if the upgrade period is over

                          WAIT A MINUTE,,, PROBLEM IS: this may also mean that they check for your purchased version if it is 8.0.xx and they release 8.1.xx then you are not eligible for the upgrade unless you have valid upgrade... this hence mean they have to close ALL BUGS in 8.0.xx (latest version of sub version 0) before moving to 8.1.xx otherwise you whoever has the upgrade expires, can't get 8.1.xx along with old bug fixes, is that true!?!? WTF grrrrrrrr if this is true!!! I've renewed the upgrade anyway, but if this theory is true it doesn't make sense as Dave is saying guys, we rather calling it "cheating" if they force you to have the upgrade in order to get 8.1 while it is full of bugs they will fix in 8.0.xx and of course bugs 8.1 will be more as new "features" will be more and for sure, do not surprise if old bugs comes up to top again and so on loooooo

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Mike,

                            Originally posted by MikeDE View Post
                            WAIT A MINUTE,,, PROBLEM IS: this may also mean that they check for your purchased version if it is 8.0.xx and they release 8.1.xx then you are not eligible for the upgrade unless you have valid upgrade... this hence mean they have to close ALL BUGS in 8.0.xx (latest version of sub version 0) before moving to 8.1.xx otherwise you whoever has the upgrade expires, can't get 8.1.xx along with old bug fixes, is that true!?!? WTF grrrrrrrr if this is true!!! I've renewed the upgrade anyway, but if this theory is true it doesn't make sense as Dave is saying guys, we rather calling it "cheating" if they force you to have the upgrade in order to get 8.1 while it is full of bugs they will fix in 8.0.xx and of course bugs 8.1 will be more as new "features" will be more and for sure, do not surprise if old bugs comes up to top again and so on loooooo
                            This is exactly what I have been trying to get across to everyone.

                            All the bugs that they choose to fix in 8.1.xx instead of 8.0.xx we need to pay for. If they had some online tracking of bugs, with an estimate of what version it will be fixed, then at least we could make an intelligent decision about whether to upgrade or not. The way things are now, we can only guess what they may or may not fix in upcoming versions. (also what they may break).

                            Dave
                            Dave Prue
                            Code Whisperer
                            Lahar International Corp
                            www.lahar.net

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Dave: no that's not what I've been told by SC. As long as you stay in version 8 bugfixes will apply. Only new functionality will not and is depending on your subscription. It would have been different if SC choose to go to version 9, but they are not and as I'm told they have no current plans to do so.

                              I know that you have all kind of reasons to nag, but please stay with the facts and try to avoid to append all kind of remarks that is not helping anyone of us. If there's a version 8.1 and you will not receive the bugfixes for 8 then I would like to know as I will address SC for it.

                              We're all volunteers here and in the same boat as you. I get irritated to read the remarks everytime as it adds nothing and they don't make your points stronger, no matter how valid they are.
                              Last edited by aducom; 02-16-2015, 05:10 AM.
                              Albert Drent
                              aducom software netherlands
                              scriptcase partner, reseller, support and (turn-key) development
                              www.scriptcase.eu / www.scriptcase.nl

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                you are right Albert, I'm sorry from my side, I'm sure Dave doesn't mean to harm or irritate anybody, we all agree about the slowness of bug fixing, yet we are happy to wait, to the extend of human being can wait

                                I strongly agree with you about we judge when we confirm, lets don't rush it, if we saw that bug fixes (whenever, even if in 8.1) they force us somehow to have valid upgrade in order to get the bug fixes, then we have the right to nag and talk further

                                I noticed that each application is created it has in the application tab > settings, the number of the current version that sc was used when first that application was created, I guess it may be also an indicator for them to still give you bug fixes to application created using that version?

                                one more conclusion: notice when they list the changelog they release them under specific categories, so maybe (lets assume well) maybe they have internal mechanism to distinguish it "smartly" after all, although it adds extra performance drop if this is correct.... lets hope so anway

                                cheer it up guys, its Monday loooool

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