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Dear NETMAKE - your ignorance is overwhelming

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  • #16
    Just to be clear.
    I like SC a lot and I appreciate what NetMake has done and is doing,
    I understand their developers are mostly Portuguese only and that's why I'm okay if the internal generated code has a lot of Portuguese in it.
    What's (negatively) impressing is the perfect American English in their marketing videos vs. the poor\broken English in the manual.
    So it seems that when they want they can hire the right people for the right job.
    Why don't they do the same for the English version of the manual?

    @ Tim
    English is their second language, why don't you learn another language and program a major application in your second language and see how easy it is for you! I bet you will find it very difficult to do.

    If you are talking about the generated code, I agree.
    About the manual is not a good argument: it's like saying that if you buy a Japanese car in your country, you cannot complain if their user manual is poorly translated into your native language, unless you can write in good Japanese yourself.
    Last edited by robydago; 03-21-2016, 06:18 PM.

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    • #17
      I, too, find that ScriptCase is a fantastic tool. I can create really nice looking applications with a minimum of effort.

      I couldn't care less that the internal code is with Portuguese variable names. I have no wish to look into their code and variables -- it should be a black box that just works -- and mostly that is the case. When I need to program something myself, I have the opportunity to add my own functions and classes as libraries, which is just perfect. In the rare case where I need to access one of their variables directly, I can live with non-meaningful variable name.

      I find Arthur's constant and repetitive ranting about the internal code of SC to be just irritating, and it may give a wrong idea about the general state or workability of ScriptCase. It is in my interest that SC do well and keep adding more features to the product, which they do seem to do.

      When it comes to actual bugs, I have only had good experience with SC. They respond to mails send through the proper channels and things do get fixed. They have always put an effort into understanding and reproducing problems. Yes, their English may not be perfect, but we get through with good effort on their part.

      So, this leaves the one area, where I really think that SC should improve (and I can see from other posts that there is agreement on this):

      THE DOCUMENTATION

      The English language in it is quite bad -- like it had been run through a Google translation. While that may be just tolerable in a one-to-one email, it is certainly not right for an official documentation.

      There is a glaring lack of explanation of parameters and proper examples of usage. This could quite easily be fixed by a programmer with medium working knowledge of English and it should be a work in constant progress. Any educational videos should be linked from the appropriate sections of the documentation.
      Best regards,

      Frank

      Comment


      • #18
        I currently work for a Fortune 100 company, yes we expect to find some things that need a work around. I am currently working on a project with Scriptcase that is about 5 Million lines of code and it has only taken me about 2 months to get here not 3 or 4 years.

        Yes, I have drawn the line and said this is the chosen tool to go forward with. No other tools even compares or even comes close, and trust me we have spent many 10's of thousands of dollars in the past and have not been happy. We can go from concept to a working model in a matter of minutes, not months or even years. No other product I know of does this. No other product that I know of does it with out bugs.....

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        • #19
          Just leaving my comment, and I state that this specific comment doesn't reflect Netmake's vision at all. Its only my opinion.
          Also I am not sure if I am 100% in the statements that will follow:


          Scriptcase is a 10+ year old tool which was born to fill a gap in the brazillian market.
          I think around 2009 the international market started to gain fuel and by 2010 Netmake the international market was always on our mind whenever we think on improving the tool.
          In other words, there is a tons of materials and legacy codes in the tool developed back when SC wasn't international and we have a small team to handle and maintain this powerful tool that you guys hate / love. (I know bunch of you have mixed feeling, days of joy and days of frustration).

          I think it would take a whole year or two to rewrite the poorly designed aspects of our tool.

          Now look to the car market for example. your new car model won't sell more if in two years they only improved the leather in the seat, the shape of the metal in the door, the tissue of the carpet or the material of your panel.
          As a client you want a news, you want improvements. A new ABS system, security improvements, a new engine, faster, cleaner, stable tires and the list goes.

          That's what we're trying to do. Improve the tool, bring news to all costumers, of course, when we redesign some part of the tool we make a clean in the code, and stuff, but its not the priority.

          Now, I believe I already told aka about this in other topics, but he either ignored or is too stubborn to understand this.
          If you keep "freaking out" because of silly things like this, people will just ignore you, for example, how we denied your free help to translate things. Thank you for volunteering, but no.

          I personally doesn't care if a client harshly criticize a product he owns. On the contrary, I find it amusing and I love a productive critic, even if it is a bit "spicy".

          TLDR: I hope you guys like the new infinity scroll!

          Regards,
          Cavadinha

          Development Team
          Netmake - IT Solutions

          Comment


          • #20
            1. Fast bug fixing is untrue statement
            2. Inability to translate code to another language is untrue (it is just lack of vision and will of doing it). They can continue same mistakes forever
            3. Albert's statements about testing SC before buying are inappropriate because as myself using the product I'm finding more and more places there there is no English used and it took me months to get to those places.
            4. Whoever is pitching the product - you do not have to do it - this is not a sales thread. We know SC value but most people need simple fixes. Translating into English takes only place once and can be done by outsourcing it.
            5. English is an international language for IT - there is no doubt about it and statements about learning another language or programing are insane. Weather you work in Japan, Russia, China or Kamerun you do software dev in English. If you cannot - go to school to learn.
            6. Logotipo etc. sounds like a poor joke ;-(
            7. I offered personally translation help to NM about 1 year ago. It was ignored !
            8. I requested 100+ fixes (English) within last 2 years. Only less that 1% was fixed.
            9. There are hundreds of companies around the planet offering software for international market. They all deal with the language barrier. Somehow most of the doing much better then NM in that aspect.
            10. Poeple in Philipines can translate the whole documentation into English for less than value of one SC license. If the NM management does not see such opportunity to cooperate with international market, developers, proof-readers etc, that's pretty bad.

            Arthur
            -----------------------------------------
            Arthur Klisiewicz
            dATA POINT SOFTWARE
            www.datapointsoftware.com

            Comment


            • #21
              Hello to all forum, i too consider that SC8 is an exceptional product as for Desktop ..
              I'm not complaining just to poor documentation and the mobile version ..
              is about a year I use it heavily, I developed several websites with SC8, i repeat for the Desktop version no problem.
              The Portuguese language is not a big deal, it would be much better to have the manuals with more examples is clearer.
              I all 'beginning of' use of SC8 I lost a lot of time because the online manuals are very unclear.
              But putting on the scale both negative and positive sides, wins the positive side.
              Together is an exceptional product, i'm sure if netmake improve the mobile version, would no longer competitors.

              Comment


              • #22
                Well, it's almost done said, and I partly agree what aka tries to say and feel, but no in the way he express it.

                Said that....

                Well, that is why you are paying, to get a product instead a language tutorial. Looks like there is not place where customer can see a letter like "ScriptCase main laguage is X".
                manfred The problem is where you compare something a little annoying for the developer, to a showstopper. Yes, Sc has it's lang faults, But I don't think is to start to run in circles and screaming about the end of the world.

                This is not easy, imagine using scriptcase to create the main portal for a big company, you can not simply say "bahh SC does not work as I expect, I will buy something else and get my portal buggy/down some days while I found another option". In development projects there is a line where you say "Ok, there is not going back from here, SC will be the chosen tool for this project".
                If you deploy or upgrade without proper testing is your fault, not SC fault.

                I mean, I don't see anybody critizing Embarcadero if Delphi comes with some bug, and Delphi costs 4000$. All releases of SC (and almost all tools in the market) comes with bugs, and we can talk about how much time take NetMake to solve it, or if they test before release, and so on... but you have to understand too, that SC is a very big product and Netmake is not a big company.

                It's your responsibility to make backups before upgrade, and test all. Yes, could be great to have a rollback, but don't exists right now. Meanwhile you can follow my suggestions before upgrade or not, but then, if something fails, don't start to cursing Netmake because you did not make a backup.

                3. Albert's statements about testing SC before buying are inappropriate because as myself using the product I'm finding more and more places there there is no English used and it took me months to get to those places.
                4. Whoever is pitching the product - you do not have to do it - this is not a sales thread. We know SC value but most people need simple fixes. Translating into English takes only place once and can be done by outsourcing it.
                5. English is an international language for IT - there is no doubt about it and statements about learning another language or programing are insane. Weather you work in Japan, Russia, China or Kamerun you do software dev in English. If you cannot - go to school to learn.
                6. Logotipo etc. sounds like a poor joke ;-(
                7. I offered personally translation help to NM about 1 year ago. It was ignored !
                8. I requested 100+ fixes (English) within last 2 years. Only less that 1% was fixed.
                9. There are hundreds of companies around the planet offering software for international market. They all deal with the language barrier. Somehow most of the doing much better then NM in that aspect.
                10. Poeple in Philipines can translate the whole documentation into English for less than value of one SC license. If the NM management does not see such opportunity to cooperate with international market, developers, proof-readers etc, that's pretty bad.
                3. On samples from some years ago. Yes, this samples shouldn't be there, but it's there, and are just samples. Samples are for you to know how SC works, not to teach you on PHP basics.
                4. No, but I'm partner, moderator, and member of the community as Developer. I have eyes and read. Is very annoying to see 6 or more threads with capitals and red just to complain with silly stuff (IMHO).
                5. I have SC customers all around the world. My english is not good, and everybody understand me. Anybody complained about I don't say correctly the word "module", because the time saved, because things are solved, it's worth and compensates the bad things. Next time, probably, I will be still saying in bad way "module".
                6. Really, you can't imagine what logotipo means?
                7. Cavadinha answered about this to you here.
                8. Maybe you didn't used the right channels to use it, or maybe a problem in the way how you asked for it. The right channel to write to bug@scriptcase.net, because this forums, mainly are community driven.

                The problem with this attitude is that is toxic.Your complainings (the way you do, not about what you complain) makes it seem Scriptcase is not a good product or not works as expected, and this is not true. For me and 90% of developers out there, the most important is that works, not if somewhere sais "Inform" instead of "Enter" (or whatever translations is, I make mistakes too).

                I spent more than 30 minutes to read and answer this unnecessary thread BTW.

                Said that you all must accept it.
                And now, this is a warning for all.

                Until now I was gentle, but I'm tired, and from now, all threads that comes unrespectful or with unnecesary colorfull big "banners", will be moderated.
                Last edited by Giu; 03-28-2016, 09:04 AM.
                /Giuseppe

                Professional Scriptcase Services
                Some Customers opinions

                Comment


                • #23
                  I would add one thing, I apologize I think that my English is not that great.

                  I have contacts in most of Europe, including Russia, Bulgaria and etc.etc good or bad i can make myself understood, i have many all 'foreign customers.

                  I am 30 years that I deal with SW development, it seems to me that many customers bought SC8 but avoids the basics of PHP / Mysql / Html / Java,
                  NetMake can not solve the missing knowledge of the customer.

                  Netmake has left the door open with Blank, so you can 'still solve any problem by writing the personal code and integrate it in SC8, i also had some problems,
                  but i solved them.
                  I Netmake an exceptional product that has saved me a lot of time.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Delphi and SC are things completely different and I am not referring to the product itself, but development of each one. I know this forum is taken by scriptcase's guys who love the product, but there are scenarios where SC can not be the hero all the the time even where task demands things less complex. My opinion. Thank you.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I posted this in a question I asked earlier today. Seemed appropriate to reiterate it here.

                      What the hell kind of coding crap is this? After spending an hour searching scriptcase I finally found code that works:
                      $(".sc-ui-checkbox-site_disclaimer")[0].checked = false;

                      Why the hell can't I just reference the field name? Why the hell do I need the garbage in front of the field name? Better yet, why the hell isn't this documented somewhere?

                      I cannot believe the amount of time I've WASTED ON FIGURING OUT SIMPLE CODE. This isn't the first post I've made and eventually come across a solution. We are paying a lot of money for SC and most of it is doing research on getting things to work that seem to be outside their standard configuration. This is become a big issue and frankly NOT FUNNY! Get your act together SC.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        RESPONSE TO GIU
                        Giu. With all respect to you - I have to say one thing. Your posts will be always biased on SC positive aspects because you are a re-seller and moderator. I do not have a problem with your opinion although I have a right to express my own on the forum. If you are tired of 'red lines' just ignore them and let others speak.

                        GENERAL
                        My attitude is like this: 1-I ask gently for a change/fix 2- I request change or fix 3-I scream for change/fix (if it remains unresolved for months). Some of the bugs or issues take just a few minutes for fix. If you trying to say that NetMake laziness in that matter is OK, then how you deal with your customers in cases like that ? You ask them to wait several months to fix minor issues ? I bet you don't. We are here not even talking about the bugs. This thread was started to bring awareness to the fact that NetMake needs to take care of their English language issues.
                        "logotipo" was just an example of million other places where one was to lazy to use English variables. For me personally it is unacceptable ! Why?
                        BECAUSE THINGS LIKE THAT add extra time to my development. I totally agree to - pkrawetzky. We save time by using PHP generator, but then wasting time on doing research.
                        If you buy a car and it has no manual, or broken side mirror - can you still drive it ? Yes. would it make you happy - no. So we not complaining just to complain but to change company attitude towards more professional product. If I would develop software and keep such terrible language throughout the project as NetMake does I would be out of business. On top of that if I would not fix simple bugs in a matter of days (or even hours) I would have no customers.
                        I never denied the great advantage of using SC in general. The potential that lies in SC is really great but comparing NetMake to other (of the same type) companies on the market puts NM far back on the quality list.


                        -----------------------------------------
                        Arthur Klisiewicz
                        dATA POINT SOFTWARE
                        www.datapointsoftware.com

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Sadly I don't have too much time to answer, but for allusions...

                          Netmake hasn't any kind of respect to resellers. My business is outsourcing, support.... but remember I use SC too like you, I'm developer and I have mu own applications and projects.
                          Second, ​Im talking about moderation , not censorship. I dont criticize you because you express your complains, but the way how you do it., and, as moderator, my "job" is not to allow some behaviours because there are more members in the community. You can say the same, but with others manners

                          I will answer appropriately in the morning
                          /Giuseppe

                          Professional Scriptcase Services
                          Some Customers opinions

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Giu - we all all nice and polite at hte beginning. When certains issues are not addressed after the numerous request I have a tendency to get upset or even mad. I'm not planning to change it simply because I deal with other businesses and companies that do not have this attitude. The initial thread was not addressed to you or even other members but addressed to NET MAKE. That is them who should read such posts and possibly when they see many users are upset about their attitude there will be some chance to change. I hope you noticed I usually do not put text in bold or red in my first post, but doing so after several requests is the only way to escalate the problem. All other emails and contacts that I have for NetMake do not work. One exception was when they tried to fix my backup files (but still it took month and a half to fix their own bugs and lots of frustration because of the language).
                            This thread was not about bugs or other issues but specifically LANGUAGE PROBLEMS which can be easily resolved with changing company attitude. Hundreds of foreign companies deal with this same problem and somehow all the "god ones" can manage it. If I would know all the issues with SC before I bought the software I would just go for another than SC option. Trial period they offer will not allow new user to even face 3% of the problems so it is meaningless. At this moment I'm half what with some project which unfortunately I have to finish with SC, but perhaps if I wouldn't start those projects I would go with another tool
                            You English as not fluent is still much better than many reps from NM. I wish they could speak at least as god as you, but it is still not about the spoken English but about the attitude of i.e. using non-English variables in the code, creating help files prompts etc which are as confusing as it gets. There is no excuse for such practices no matter what language the developers speaking. I worked ears ago in Poland but no developer could create a variable in polish. All docs, spec everything was in English although only few people spoken fluent English 20 years ago.
                            If you offer me your software full of Spanish stuff in it I would simply ask you to refund my money and go and deal with another developer. This is same true for me although English is not my native language. If anybody tries to argue about English being international IT language I would say that person to go and do some research then go to school and learn. This same is true for all of us (weather we like it or not). Is is true for NM as well weather they like it or not and if they do not change it they will hear lots and lots of complains and screaming about this paradigm, no matter where the developer using SC is.
                            -----------------------------------------
                            Arthur Klisiewicz
                            dATA POINT SOFTWARE
                            www.datapointsoftware.com

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Allow me to add a few words to this topic. I am writing all the way from Kenya (Africa) and have been writing desktop applications in Omnis 7 and Omnis Studio for the last 25 years. In order to remain relevant in the industry I decided that I had to write web based applications and hence my search began for one that was also RAD having been used to this mode of programming. Yes, Omnis Studio has this capabilities but is very expensive to deploy.

                              After searching high and wide I stumbled upon SC and even though at first I was discouraged as it meant that I had to use a web browser to develop, within a short period of time, I fell in love with it.

                              Yes, nothing can be perfect and yes language is a big barrier since SC has been originally written in Portuguese however I firmly believe that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
                              As of now I have developed an Insurance Motor Vehicle Valuations and Accident Assessment application, my very first Web based application and I am indeed very proud of it. I donít think Iíd have done it without SC, the perfect RAD. The offline/online help, tutorial videos and forums are elaborate enough for one to acquire the necessary knowledge. It didnít take me years of programming and I am now ready to launch this product into the local market. I am impatient to get on to my next project.

                              Lastly, I think that it is important to differentiate between websites and web based applications development. Only then will one really appreciate the true value of SC. Let us not forget that SC is very affordable and best still is the deployment affordability.

                              Who would have thought that the Brazilians would have come up with such a brilliant and fantastic product?

                              Keep it up NetMake. You are reaching far and wide.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                MohMiro - you should have mentioned how long you use SC. If you haven't started from version5 or earlier you missing the big picture. Why ? Because some bugs are there for 4-5 years and haven't been fixed. When I started using SC I was as impressed as you are, but over the time my enthusiasm dimished. I stated several times that idea of the product is great and I used similar product for desktop for 20 years. I'm not saying SC is useless but comparing NetMake philosophy and attitude to other companies based in Germany, Sweden, France, Russia, Poland NetMake has language barrier problem which those countries have not. NetMake also has problem with paying attention to details in the development process and that means the whole product testing simply sucks. International company should not release product to the market that has so many problems, but rather test it carefully first. The whole SC communite knows the NetMake is really bad in fixing bugs and providing support - but why I should say everything is OK if it is not(?). I work in IT for 40 years and have enough experience in dealing with vendors. This experience gives me ability to compare what is possible and comparison of different companies and their attitude towards the clients/users.
                                Yes NetMake works on improvements but at the same time ignores tons of user requests and suggestions, where many of them are super simple and cheap to implement.
                                I really wish NetMake do some corrections and make the tool to deserve INTERNATIONAL label.
                                -----------------------------------------
                                Arthur Klisiewicz
                                dATA POINT SOFTWARE
                                www.datapointsoftware.com

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